Perhaps you might recall my earlier proofs of God, well here is another.
We live in a flawed reality. We use language with its limitations to describe things that we perceive with our imperfect sensory organs. The label of a thing is not that thing; it is merely how we as human beings are able to understand it to the best of our abilities. However, presumably there is actually a thing that we are perceiving and experiencing. It must have an essence that makes it what it is, despite us as a species being unable to objectively ratify it. The tree-ness of a tree, for example, that goes beyond a green leafy-looking thing that may or may not get rid of its green leafy-looking things every autumn.
The idea that things must have an essence that truly make them things was first theorized by a German, Immanuel Kant, and he referred to that essence as the thing-in-itself. While unable to be appreciated by our insufficient intellect, Kant suggests that there still must be an objective reality that transcends our experiential one, and defines it from the outside.
Arthur Schopenhauer, another German, built upon Kant’s theory of the thing-in-itself by suggesting that the Will is what makes a thing a thing. It is what drives us that defines us. Circumstance, character, environmental factors (note: all of these would be phenomena, existing within the experiential universe) may all focus or direct the Will, but the Will itself exists outside. The subject to the universe’s object.
Of course, there are gradations to the Will. The Will as it exists in a human being is a much stronger representation than the Will that exists in a fluffy bunny rabbit. The further down the scale, the more devoid of knowledge the subject becomes, and the more it must conform to laws. Animals are more susceptible to instincts, and plants only have the drive to grow, bear seed, and die. The bottom of the scale would be inanimate objects, mere pawns of physical laws.
Now what does the Will as the thing-in-itself have to do with God? Well, if the Hindus are to be believed, the Atman (the Self) is the same as the Brahman (God). The Will, as Schopenhauer envisions it, permeates all of eternity, and we are individualized portions of it, focusing it in our actions. If our Selves (our Atman) are all the representations of this Will, then we are all disillusioned into thinking that we are individual people, and to achieve salvation, or moral well-being, we would have to recognize the unity in all things, and act accordingly.
Another possibility of this theory accounting for a God is if each individual person/creature/object has their own thing-in-itself, rather than a generalized one that encompasses everything. For example, my Will would exist strictly within my own consciousness, and would not be a focusing of a larger/greater Will. If this were the case, and each Will of each person is their essence, each Will of each fluffy bunny or of each stone, then there would be a thing-in-itself of Being as well. Existence would require its own thing-in-itself, and following Schopenhauer’s proposition that the thing-in-itself is a Will, then there would be a Will behind the universe, this being God. Of course, Schopenhauer followed closer to the Hindu model and didn’t investigate this more individuated method (so far as I know), so this is just my own theory as to how the Will as the thing-in-itself is a potential for a proof of God.
Do I agree with this? Nope, still atheist. However, it is an interesting proof, and does answer the problem of Free Will that I look at in my previous post. Should I offer my refutation as to why I don’t believe it? Ehn, it’s getting kind of late. Maybe I’ll let you, dear readers, figure this one out for yourselves.
To transform Schopenhauer’s idea of Will to god would require a stretch of imagination only believers are capable of. His will has no intelligence. And he says all Will is uncaused but the phenomena of the will is determined. Anyone who reads his work and sees an argument for free will, must in my view have read him only halfway.
I need to add that you did a good post
Thank you! I write most of these to make people think about things they might not otherwise, and I always enjoy when people disagree with me because a) it forces me to think more critically about the subject and b) I just might learn something!
Considering Schopenhauer’s theory of Will was heavily inspired by the Hindu Upanishads, I would say that it is no great leap to declare that it could be viewed as an argument for God. He just gave it a Kantian twist. Yes, Schopenhauer did not include intelligence in his theory, but does divinity require intellect as we know it? Or alternatively, would it be such a perversion to suggest that although Schopenhauer might not have proposed it, that if there were a metaphysical Will, that it could potentially have intelligence?
I’m not suggesting that Schopenhauer was trying to prove God. I’m just saying that when I read his book, it looked to me that it very easily could have been. And considering I’m *not* a believer, I don’t think it’s fair to say that I’m merely projecting my own beliefs.
As to Free Will, I don’t want to go back and sift through hundreds of pages to find it, but I’m pretty sure he explicitly says that the Will is free, as it exists outside of the realm of causality. Its phenomena may be caused and subject to all that that entails, but the Will itself is free. I won’t argue with you on that point because I may be misremembering and I really don’t want to go search through that tome just to make an argument on the internet. It was The World as Will and Representation if you want to go (presumably?) reread it to find out for sure.
It is in my view a great leap to argue that his will is an argument for god, unless the god here is the Pantheist god, the god of Spinoza. His will is in everything, stones, trees, beasts. Kant as you well know, at the end of his Critique of Pure Reason does say something to the effect that a belief in god is not arrived at through logic [I can’t remember this quite well].
But I don’t think we know anything of the divine. If you do, you could care to enlighten a brother.
I already saw you were an unbeliever and as such would not be accusing you of stretching your imagination to see god in every crook. No, far from it.
We are in agreement on the matter of the will. He writes that the will is free and undetermined, that we have freewill he doesn’t accept. HE writes on the will in his prize winning essay on the will.
Well I certainly wasn’t suggesting the monotheistic Christian God, but I haven’t read Spinoza so I’ll have to take your word on that one. I was thinking more along the lines of Shinto, where the spirits of the divine rest in nature, or Buddhism, where everything is infused with the Buddha nature, Native American religion with all its spirits, or of course Hinduism, with its concept of Atman and Brahman (which I mention in my post).
I can’t remember whose theory this was, but I quite enjoy the argument that God transcends our existence so profoundly, that to even claim that God exists is to diminish Its worth. You can say that using logic in a inherently illogical system (such as belief) is impossible, and it probably is, but it can be fun sometimes too.
The divine in most religions (I won’t be so bold to say all, but I can’t think of any examples that say otherwise) is something that exists outside the empirical realm, but influences it. Usually either through moral value (such as Karma or divine law) or direct intervention, for good or ill. Is not Schopenhauer’s Will something that exists outside our universe, but still influences it through its manifests through us?
And lastly, maybe I’ll have to read this essay, but I think that if an action is based off of an uncaused Will, it would be considered “free.”
I find the word god very ambiguous. It can refer to anything anyone wants it to mean. I don’t see any difference between the god you describe and that of Spinoza.
Such a theory makes the discussion about gods useless. It must have been a religious apologist who said that.
The divine was made to exist outside nature when they couldn’t show any proof. In the OT, for instance, there are several times the divine comes down to be with men.
The Will is part of the universe. Not outside of it. Even going by the book title itself, the world as will and Idea/ representation. It doesn’t put the will outside the universe.
Since the essay is short, you can read it and then we can continue the discussion. Looking forward to that.
There are an infinite number of variations of what God means. I’m fairly certain you could ask two members of the same Christian congregation what God means to them and they’d give you different answers. The relationship that humanity has with God is just as individual/personal as it is communal, if not moreso.
Of course God’s existence transcending existence makes the discussion of God useless. The reason I brought it up was because of your Kantian argument that a proof of God cannot be brought about using logic reminded me of it, as that would be an equally useless discussion. I just find it ironic that today the factuality of religion is so heavily enforced, when non-existence has been used as a theological argument describing the state of God in the past.
Demanding “proof” of God really only showed up around the time of the scientific revolution, when people fell in love with science and wanted to include it in *EVERY*thing, including religion. Before that, it was really only a discussion of the nature of God, because to “prove” God was like trying to “prove” air. It just was taken for granted that God existed.
Also, the Old Testament God IS outside the universe. His home would be Heaven. You could make the same argument with the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna spends the entire book hanging out with Arjuna. That would be the direct intervention of the divine I was talking about.
The real doozie though would be Jesus, who existed entirely in the material realm. Christianity is probably the most complex (or confused, depending on how argumentative you want to get about it) and part of that is the paradox of Christ who is 100% human and 100% divine. He necessarily had to exist solely in the material realm, or that 100% human bit wouldn’t be accurate. A lot of Christianity is people saying, “just go with it.”
The divine exists outside of nature because people desire more from this life than what nature can provide. Meaning, hope, morality, guidance… none of those things exist within nature, so we looked outside.
Kant defines the thing-in-itself as something that cannot be discovered through human perception. If it exists outside of any possible human experience, it’s really just semantics arguing whether or not it is inside or outside of the universe.
Okay. After all that, let’s look at Free Will now.
Let’s say humans don’t possess Free Will. That means we are being driven by Schopenhauer’s Will along the path that it has dictated, and we are bound by a Calvinist determinism. Which, fine, that’s a possibility, but you said that the Will has no intellect or consciousness which would enable it to drive us in any particular fashion, so we’ll scrap that option.
The other alternative is that it is a mindless cause. If that’s true, then it might as well not exist. If our actions are dictated by our environments, character, etc., to add another factor which is basically blank because it has no objective is entirely meaningless. It has no ends in mind, nor any momentum from a previous cause, so it is simply a void. It would have no influence, and is therefore unimportant and can be thrown away.
Lastly, it contradicts a few of the points Schopenhauer makes. The gradations of the Will would be invalid, as he says that the further down the scale a being is, the more susceptible to laws it becomes. However, if there is no Free Will, then all beings would be equally susceptible to the causal laws of the universe.
The other problem would be his version of morality, which is recognizing the unity of all things and acting accordingly. Morality without Free Will cannot exist. One would need to be able to actively choose to follow the path of unity for it to be considered moral. Otherwise you’re left with Calvin’s Grace, where one is either born with the predisposition towards morality, or one is condemned to damnation, which I think both you and Schopenhauer would disagree with.
Thanks for your detailed response.
We are in agreement that hardly no two people will tell you the same thing about what they perceive god to be. I would like to add however that outside of a particular religion, the word god is in my view meaningless. So we can only start to make sense of the word by saying, for example, the Jewish God, the Hindu God and so on.
We may not ask for proof of god but I think we are justified in asking for a demonstration that the claims made by the religious are factual. You are also alive to the fact that most religious people claim to be able to have proof of god so with that in mind, I don’t think it is asking too much to provide this proof they have.
In the OT, this god is part of the universe. He does not live outside of it. He takes walks in the garden, smells the sacrificial bbq and so on.
My position on Jesus is he is a narrative construct and until more evidence is adduced to prove that he was a man of flesh and blood, I will hold onto that position.
Yes, Schopenhauer writes that intelligence comes after the will to assist it. That is why he is able to maintain that everything has will but not intelligence so that the stone has will but no intelligence. I see no contradiction between no freewill and morality whatever you take morality to be. I think our actions are not exempt from the causal laws of the universe. The difficulty in our case arises due to the complexity of causes and influences that act upon us.
[…] ones force you to acknowledge the hazy boundaries of materialism. I’ve written about a few before, and though none of them have changed my mind, they still offer unique ways to contemplate the […]
” I see no contradiction between no freewill and morality whatever you take morality to be. ”
If you have zero control over what you think, feel and act then you cannot have any moral responsibility.
Morality tells you what you OUGHT to do and what you OUGHT not to do.
Ought implies freedom to act a certain way or choose to act not this way. Ought implies power to choose.